Talk:Adv Shep Merge

From ProphWiki

Contents 1 Naloh's Original Post 2 MEETING NOTES 3 Issues to still be discussed 3.1 Clan and subclan names 3.2 WWP 3.3 Clan Hall 3.3.1 Location 3.3.2 Adusting for Evil Chars 3.3.3 Legacy 3.3.4 Clan Rooms 3.4 Race restrictions of OL/SL 3.5 Council 4 Summary 4.1 General Info 4.2 New Clan acceptance 4.3 Clan Names 4.4 WWP 4.5 Clan Rank 4.6 Overlord Races 4.7 Clan Hall 4.8 Clan Rules 4.9 Legacy 4.10 Alliance Help File 5 Some Anheg Comments 5.1 General Playerclan Comments 5.2 Fast rough merge comments 6 Alisaha's decision

[edit] Naloh's Original Post

After speaking with a few people on the idea of a clan merger between Shepherds and Adventurers, I spent today trying to figure a win win way of making this happen. The idea that I came up with is simply a new clan. Now let me explain a moment. Shepherds have been historically a clan of experianced newbie helpers. -Adventurers have been a clan for newbies. The beauty of merging the two into a new clan is that the newbies will have easier access to the experianced. Here are the details.

1) Clan Mission - Give new Players easier access to experiance, Eliminate compitition between current Shepherds and Adventurers, and to give evil Chars a place to learn Prophecy.

2) Sub-clans - would be divided into 4 subclans. Current Adv and Sheps would be transed to this new clan and put in the correct sub.

    -Experianced teachers (Shepherds)
    -Good Align Newbies (White Sheep)-Ul, Belar, and Chaldan
    -Neutral Align Newbies (Gray Sheep)-Nedra and Issus
    -Evil Align Newbies (Black Sheep)-Torak

This breakup also allows Evil Align characters to have a place to learn the mud. All names are rough drafts and open to change. It is also the main reason a NEW clan is needed unless Adv will revamp to allow evil align newbies.

3) Ranks - This would be a bit tricky. The Shepherds subclan would continue to use the current shepherds ranking system of activity and experiance. The other three subclans would be based on the current Adv system. Here is the reason for this. The current Adv rank system is a nice blend of gold, AQPoints, RP(storyboard), and Levels. I believe they are the best for newbies to learn the mud and how to RP on the mud. The Sheps should be ranked by there activity and experiance.

4) Roster limits - Shepherds subclan should be limited to 10 members. The reason this number should be limited this low is to keep everybody from being in sheps, it is for active helpers. The other subclans should be limited to 15-20.

5) Joining requirements - This clan is for newbies and as such only new characters are allowed to join. The difference in this and current Adv requirement is that evil characters are not allowed currently. To join as a shep a player should have atleast 6 months of playing history, His character should be level 91, not of any Angarak race, and maybe even a test given by the Lord to decide current experiance level.

6) Clan hall - New clan hall would be located between Yar Gurak and Boktor. This location would be idea if all races are allowed to join. It would also make it easier for newbies to get to Boktor for low level aquests. This area is also good to make storyboards more believable for evil characters to join the clan RP wise.

I am open to any comments, questions, or snide remarks on this idea. They can be posted here or on the idea broad on Prophecy. --Naloh 02:44, 27 June 2007 (BST)

I think this change is a little too large and unnecessary. Tossing out two entire clans for a new one isn't very cost effective. The fees to start a clan are enormous (help clan_creation) in addition to the cost of creating a clan hall. Whereas modifying an already established clan wouldn't require a complete overhaul on rules, ranks, clan halls, etc. --Maeyja 23:47, 27 June 2007 (BST)

It's effectively a merge, chances are we'd be willing to waive fees. And such a merge, or clan modification, probably *would* require a relative overhaul. As things stand, Adventurers has no real "system" for handling non-newbies, it basically just takes in teachers, assigns them a 2-3 rank, and that's about it (or, well, that was how it was done in the time when I could have said I was familiar with the clan's workings). The idea has merit, I'm just personally intrigued about the "Shepherd" requirements. After Shepherds became a playerclan, and Adventurers was created, one of the merits of Adv was that its "teacher" requirements used to be about as stringent as for when Shepherds was one of the 5 main clans, while Shepherds the playerclan had let those slide somewhat. Hmm. - Anheg 14:18, 27 June 2007 (BST)

My only observation, and possibly objection, is the requirement that "Shepherds" not be Angarak. Why not? A player with an Angarak alt is just as likely to learn the mud as well as a player with a non-Angarak alt. And since the clan itself would allow Angaraks to join as newbies, I see no reason to deny them the ability to achieve the honor of being a Shepherd. The idea as a whole is a good one, and I think it might even be beneficial to the mud. Right now, Shepherds is completely inactive and I think a merger between Shepherds and Adventurers would be a very wise move. And since we're on the subject of inactivity, I think something needs to be done and soon. Our playerbase is probably at an all time low, and I'm rather disappointed with the number of people who claim to be active, yet only log to check notes. If we want this mud to attract more players, whether they be old or new, something needs to change on a drastic level. Just my opinion. -- Hafwen 19:31, 28 June 2007 (BST)

Since the overall consensus is that this is a good idea (from players I've talked to on the MUD), what would it take to get the ball rolling on this? --Maeyja 21:04, 6 July 2007 (CEST)

With no disrespect meant, basically, the approval/initiation/can'tthinkofagoodword of the people whose decisions actually matter (Haliharn/Alisaha, neither of whom has contributed (directly) here to this discussion, heh). Thus, meeting at 20070715.182747 - Anheg 12:44, 14 July 2007 (CEST)

If this occurs, imho it would be good to preserve the list of clan lords of Sheps in that clan's hall, for historical reasons. Noran 22:13, 6 July 2007 (CEST)

while i agree that it's important to save history and to honor people who did a lot for the mud, i have to say (at the risk of having many people hate me) that the immortalization of people who abandoned the mud long ago should be very low on the priority list. it's more important, i believe, to focus on the people who are currently playing and will be affected most by this change. the rest of it can wait until later. Hafwen 19:54, 10 July 2007 (CEST)

Indeed, certainly not first priority, just don't want it to get lost. - Noran (Playerweb|Talk|Contribs) 00:37, 15 July 2007 (CEST)

[edit] MEETING NOTES

1.General Overall feeling of merge-

2.Whether to create a whole new clan or add sheps as a sub-clan of Adventurers- decided that a new clan would be the best option

• A. the need for a new name for clan and sub clan was briefly discussed, but that discussion

  was put off till later.

3. Discussion of Ranks - Decided that the newbie sub-clans would stay with adventure ranking system, and that the teacher sub-clan would abide by the test system that Gerath installed.

4. Joining requirements for teachers-In response to Naloh’s joining requirement: Time played on the mud is not really a factor, and alignment has not been either

5.Angaraks newbies- decided if the purpose of the clan is to help newbies, then TRUE newbies should be allowed in the new clan.

6 A considerable amount of time was dedicated to how to keep the new clan from becoming an alt dump or over cluttered , and whether people in existing clans should have a transfer to the new clan .-Decided that existing members would have to reapply. Also decided that teacher portion would be limited to 10 people, which makes the standards of activity, helpfulness, and knowledge key to staying in the teacher sub-clan. Periodic testing and review of members would be required.

• A. It was also decided that the new clan would be a temporary home for newbies. That at

  level 91 they would have a review, and upon being determined that the newbie was no longer a

  newbie, be promoted out of the clan and given a list of other clans that they might join,

  with the option to apply for the teacher sub-clan.

• B. Some discussion on how to keep newbies from going stagnant. While we want to be less

  stringent on the newbies, the teacher element/clan lord should be watching that the newbie

  is progressing and warnings/booting should be issued

7. Lordship- Alisaha would be OL, subs to be decided later

8. Bssic Structure - 4 sub-clans, One teacher- three by alignment

9. Timeframe- From the point that decisions on other details have been made and new clan application is filed, it would take relatively little time to implement. Imms would remove shepherds, clear out all their lockers', Then once that's done, edit the Adventurers clan to become the new clan, and replace the Adv hall and remove the Shep hall'

10. Clan hall- location discussed but not decided upon, although general opinion is that Camaar is rather cosmopolitan and fits with rp

• previous lords/legacy discussed, suggestions of statues, put off to further discussion clan

  builder

Alisaha 16:07, 16 July 2007 (CEST)

[edit] Issues to still be discussed

[edit] Clan and subclan names

RP names are needed for the clan and sub-clans. While Naloh's are ok, I would really prefer if we could come up with names that have nothing to do with Adventure or Shepards, so that it is an entirely new clan, and will cut down on some of the pride issues. Now is the time to Brainstorm :)

I did a bit of brainstorming, and came up with a possible name. Leave feedback, etc. It's still an idea in progress. Main clan name could be Savants, abbreviated [Svnt]. Sub-clans would be Apprentices, Novices, Initiates, and Teachers. Each of the three non-teacher subs will correspond to an alignment, just which one is in the air. Lathale 18:08, 16 July 2007 (CEST)

i like Lathale's idea here. if you're going to make each of the non-teacher subs alignment based, perhaps you could name them according to the races? use ranks from the books for Angaraks (Novices or Initiates works for this), for Western races (of good align) Apprentices would work, or perhaps Commoners or Freemen. for neutral align, maybe Merchants or Novices. Hafwen 14:36, 17 July 2007 (CEST)

I like this idea. Was thinking that in a number of places in the book, people were called Guides. Maybe the teacher clan could be called this, guiding newbies in their exploration of the mud. Alisaha 17:57, 19 July 2007 (CEST)

I like everything I've seen so far. I definitely like the word "Guide" more than "teacher" for one. Also, Hafwen is much better than me at using appropriate nouns with connotations of alignment. -sage-. So I fully support everything, basically. Lathale 03:29, 21 July 2007 (CEST)

Mortiris has pointed out that Savants really only applies to the teachers and suggested the idea of the clan name being Academy. Since that's what the clan is for. IMHO, Savant fits better for the teacher clan in the Academy theme.... but I still like Guides... thoughts?Alisaha 21:30, 30 July 2007 (CEST)

*Another* Academy? Anheg 20:01, 1 August 2007 (CEST)

University was also suggested but it doesnt abbriviate nicely. ````

[edit] WWP

Along with a fitting name other questions to be discussed:

1. What rank we recieve wwp?
2. Does the teacher clan have a separate wwp?
3. What would it offer to ensure balance to melee and spell casting chars?

I like the current system of withholding wwp till the newbie has put some effort into the clan. And in the past the idea of giving clan load as a rank incintive. I agreee with Naloh's plan for the teacher wwp.

if you're withholding wwp based on rank, be sure that your teachers are educating newbies on the very best possible eq for their level. haste is something that people tend to forget about because it's standard in most wwp. if i'm not clanned, i forget it constantly. it's a good idea to withhold wwp based on rank. it gives people something to strive for. teacher clan should have seperate wwp. as for balance, i have no idea. i'm iffy on that aspect of eq. as for strings: make up new ones for each subclan (don't use any of the old strings) and let your members vote on them. Hafwen 14:27, 17 July 2007 (CEST)

Results of brainstorming with Alisaha and Zhuntah. The Guide wwp is proposed to have 75 hp, -2 saves and 5 damroll (and perm_haste), to give balance to both melee and spellcasting characters who will be Guides. The newbie wwp is proposed to have 3 hitroll, 4 damroll, -30 ac, and perm_invis (because haste is present in every set of leveling eq). I have come up a possible color scheme, let me know if you'd like to see what I've experiment with. Lathale 21:46, 20 July 2007 (CEST)

I think The guide WWP should have a tad less HP and a bit more saves. Since saves are the big thing right now and they benefit everyone they are more neutral ground than hp in my opinion. I like the 3/4 and perm_invis on the newbie WWP but think we might consider stats as opposed to AC, this would allow us to equip newbies with better armor instead of levelling eq. Perhaps something like 3/3 2con 2wis 2dex with perm_invis Mortiris 03:53, 1 August 2007 (CEST)

This is do-able, but how many saves? I don't mind giving the newbie stats so we could give better armor... in fact it might be an incintive to gain to rank 8 to get the wwp and better eq. Alisaha 17:34, 1 August 2007 (CEST)

About newbie eq. I totally agree with Mort here, though I think that we should either do 2 of each stat (then 2/2 and perm_invis) or have 2 of the three tougher ones (wis, int and con, because haste and giant_str are everywhere) and then 3/3 perm_invis. Not much of a difference in the end though. Lathale 01:18, 5 August 2007 (CEST)

On Lathale's point. I think we can't do the first suggestion as stated exactly, but we can do 2 of each stat and 1/1 (10 stats + 1 hitroll + 1 damroll) and perm_invis but the second one works out. I'd really prefer the second option, since, as Lathale says, giant_strength and haste are everywhere (and those stats are never seem to be a problem when statting).Yeriath 01:47, 5 August 2007 (CEST)

The Shepherds/Wolfpack Clan already has WWP split into Caster/Melee, so that part does not need to be changed, but a general name/wwp for the extra clan splits for good/nuetral/evil subclans is the next thing to consider.

Based on discussions I have been part of, all WWP will be changed, both in strings and stats. This "merge" is effectively the removal of two clans and the creation of a new one. It isn't supposed to be "half Shep, half Adven". Some old things will stay, some things from both clans will be brought into it, but the heart of it all will be vastly different from both clans. And personally, I think that's a good thing. Hafwen 22:08, 25 July 2008 (CEST)

[edit] Clan Hall

[edit] Location

It might be easier to remain in Camaar, if it is agreed that it would be rp for a evil newbie to be there. Boktor has been suggested but someone has said that the evil chars would not feel comfortable with spys around. Muros and the Great Fair have also been suggested.

Muros has the intrinsic problem of the murgo mercenaries around that make short work of any newbies that might be unfortunate to run into them if they even dare to venture outside their clan hall. At least Camaar and Boktor are more newbie friendly. Harakan 16:15, 16 July 2007 (CEST)

maybe (dare i say it?) since newbies start out in Sendar, the clanhall could be put there? or even where the current Shepherd hall is in the Sendarian countryside. but the reason i suggest Sendar is because a) everyone starts there and b) it's the most logical place for all those races to mix. Camaar, not so much. i'm aware that there is already another clanhall attached to Sendar, i don't know if this would cause a problem or not. but anyway, it's just something to think about. also, just a general observation: you might want to refrain from putting portals in your clanhall. the reason for this: it will force newbies to learn the mud. or just put portals to places that are difficult for them to walk to, like algarian plains/drasnian moors, cherek forest, riva palace/island. just seems to me if you're going to be teaching newbies the mud, you might want them to learn how to walk from place to place. when they graduate from the newbie clan, then they can start taking advantage of other clan's portals. just a thought. Hafwen 14:43, 17 July 2007 (CEST)

might I also suggest as a follow-up to Hafwen's idea that there be less clan portals around - perhaps you could make the clan portal room rank dependent, i.e. only those with clan rank above 8 or something can enter it. that way you could still have the portals there, but you would still need to do some work to earn the right to use them. not sure if this can be done though...Vaikartana 17:24, 17 July 2007 (CEST)

it might be possible to do it with mprogs. make one of the subclans rank dependant, then have and ifcheck to make sure the person is in that subclan. if they are (or in the main clan), then the mprog could let them through. it can be done easily, would just have to be agreed upon by all interested parties. Hafwen 08:01, 18 July 2007 (CEST)

there is actually an (undocumented, figures) clanrank if-check. Even easier :) Harakan 09:31, 18 July 2007 (CEST)

I like this idea, one more benefit to earning rank... would it be psssible to make certain portals rank dependant, so that as you gain rank, you gain access to more portals? Alisaha 05:06, 20 July 2007 (CEST)

How about Kell? Isn't that one place where everyone would be calm and be able to cooperate with each other? --Kerowa 04:36, 21 July 2007 (CEST)

Talk about out of the way. I think that after relinking, multiple home towns (and with that multiple aquestmasters), Kell might be a good idea, but currently it's just impractical. Not to mention the fact that when you leave Kell and take only one wrong turn, the newbie will be dead. Harakan 10:23, 22 July 2007 (CEST)

Hafwen's idea above got a bit derailed into a discussion about portals, but I really think Sendar would be a great spot. There is still room along Clan Road for a hall, but people might nog want to have two clans so close together. There are also quite a few possible places in the south of Sendar, either straight off Wall Road or on various roads in/near the park. Harakan 10:23, 22 July 2007 (CEST)

personally, i don't mind if more than one clanhall is linked to Sendar. Sendar is big enough for all of us. linked to the south part of Sendar is an excellent idea. as for Kell, not a bad thought, but you're forgetting that Kell was generally closed to outsiders, not to mention forbidden to angarak races. realistically (and from an RP point of view), a clan that plans to be as diverse as this one should be centered in Sendar. Hafwen 18:43, 22 July 2007 (CEST)

I definitely like Sendar as the location, it's the logical place for newbies to be. In the south would also be nice, I'd like to suggest something off of Emerald Avenue. Lathale 18:14, 31 July 2007 (CEST)

Shepherds Clan Hall was put just outside sendar for a reason already, it's very central to the entire mud, and shepherds hall is already designed to be helpful to newbies, with minimal portals, about the only thing that would need disconnecting for a rebuild is the old rooms.

It was my understanding that the reason for not using either of the old locations was to drive home the fact that this is not Adventures merging into Shepherds or Shepherds merging into Adventurers, but rather a deletion of two smaller clans and the members from those clans forming an entirely new, and larger, clan. Hafwen 22:00, 25 July 2008 (CEST)

[edit] Adusting for Evil Chars

Would there be a need to restucture clan hall so that a murgo is not encountering an Algar, by maybe separate wings or would something like the Spirit of Eriond abiding in the rooms work, any other thoughts?

add different wings, each with a clan guard. one for western races, one for eastern races. the rp reasoning for this could be that, to keep racial differences from taking over, the guards are there to keep order. as for specific races, you could take that a step further and put all thulls in one place, all nadraks in another place, etc. Hafwen 14:11, 17 July 2007 (CEST)

yep that sounds like a good idea...i particularly like the LoN hall where if you go down from clan recall there are 4 separate wings in the cardinal directions for each subclan, so something like that could be put in place.Vaikartana 17:26, 17 July 2007 (CEST)

Okie, are we talking that each race would have a different potion shop,bank, ect... or just about clan rooms? Becaue as I pointed out under clan rooms, if the newbies are likely to "graduate" to another clan, why would they want buy a clan room there? Just trying to clarify what all that entails, because the LoN hall has a main healer, bank, trainer, ect that is shared by all races.Alisaha 16:29, 23 July 2007 (CEST)

Unless we are going to have a separate set of stores/healers for each alignment, I suggest that we use the existing Adv clan hall for now... maybe adding a separate wing for the Guides which would hold their ranks,rules, and rooms. If we go with Academy we could maybe later adjust the descriptions to reflect an academy setting. Just a thought here to make things easier for getting this moving. Since this is for newbies we really don't want clan hall to be real difficult to find his/her way around.Alisaha 21:41, 30 July 2007 (CEST)

[edit] Legacy

It would be neat to have some form of former shep and adv lords... Statues had been mentioned. One idea that Naloh meantioned to me was that instead of all the signs in the clan hall, a newbie could give himself a tour of the clan hall by talking to various statues of the clans anncestors. For example, you would say rules to a statue of Gerath, and Gerath would then tell him the clan rules. I don't know how difficult this would be to implement... but I think it would be really cool, and worth some time.

this might seem cold and impersonal and just a tad, well, bitchy, but i don't see a need to immortalize people who've abandoned the mud. your statues should be people who founded the clan originally and people who made Shepherds what it was. people like Jill, Asmodai, Jared, Faeline... i'm sure you get the idea. immortalizing people who felt the need to abandon the mud after making a commitment to the clan is, in my view, a poor example of what a Shepherd should be. i'm not saying statues are a bad idea, but make them of people who actually made a strong contribution to Shepherds and the mud. Hafwen 14:20, 17 July 2007 (CEST)

Hmm, well I would personally disagree there. While I suppose you could pick and choose which ones to put statues up to or not, it would mostly come down to a matter of perspective. Some leaders it would be easy to decide, some it might not be. I personally have no idea what the old LoN leaders were like but the statues in the hall are pretty nifty and it does give a bit of history. Whether they abandoned the mud or not, from a personal point of view I am and was not really too interested, to tell the truth. Whilst some Shepherd lords might've left quickly after leaving, they actually did do some work to get there in the first place. On the old mud.lu forums there were some really nice posts by Gerath on developing the various races/classes and during his time as a Shepherd I felt he did a fair job helping others, even if I felt he did leave far too quickly after becoming lord. But then again, personal issues crop up and if unforseen circumstances occur, things like that will happen. I think if you are going to put statues/whatever up, you should include all the past leaders. It would otherwise end up very subjective.Vaikartana 17:36, 17 July 2007 (CEST)

Two comments. One, thanks Hafwen for the chuckle about "people who made Shepherds what it was". Secondly, fwiw, the Legacy criteria, as I recall, were either having lorded (might have only been OL, I forget the lord structure they had), or having "made a significant contribution to the clan/MUD" - Anheg 19:28, 17 July 2007 (CEST)

in rebuttal: Qethia was OL. i hardly think that qualifies her for Legacy, solely on that one fact. what did she do while she was OL? she quit the mud. i was trying not to mention any names, but that's a prime example of someone who *wasn't* what a Shepherd should be. Hafwen 08:03, 18 July 2007 (CEST)

Building on Vaikartana's idea of the statues teaching the newbies something and blending that with what we use to have in GoW. We should make a newbie training area where newbies can go through it (similar to mud school but more specific) and as they enter each room the statues can talk about topics. If anyone has had a chance to see the GTS books made by GoW we need to put something together like that. It will make those "quiters" still useful :) After all, you can still be useful and gone, names hold a lot of sway on the mud. Mortiris 04:01, 1 August 2007 (CEST)

What specifically would we teach in this newbie school? I again REALLY like the idea of interactive statues, but building wise not sure if this is something we can do at a later time, to not put too much on our clan builder.Alisaha 17:27, 1 August 2007 (CEST)

These statues would teach things like Aquesting, the importance of stats while levelling, perhaps some advice on how to RP based on your race? Pretty much like mud school but tailored to our clan so how to gain rank, who the teachers are and what they're for. It would also be great to give a quiz at the end, if you pass this quiz than you get a diploma and this gets you rank 9 or something.Mortiris 05:21, 2 August 2007 (CEST)

[edit] Clan Rooms

I'm assusing existing clan rooms will be moved to the new clan hall. Question is if this is going to be a temporary home for the newbies, is a clan room at rank 4 something that they would want to do? Thinking we might need to relook at the rewards for ranks for the newbie clans. Alisaha 05:02, 20 July 2007 (CEST)

The ranking system for newbies needs to be adjusted a bit to account for the fact that we will/might have them until they are 91. If you take this into consideration and move it so in order to graduate the clan you need to get to say rank 3 than if clan rooms are granted at rank 5 there is still a purpose to them. The point of the clan rooms originally was because right now the clan doesn't need the gold, it's a useful way to spend gold and help clan members while giving them a prestigious symbol of their accomplishments. Mortiris 04:05, 1 August 2007 (CEST)

The the reason for "graduating" newbies when they reach 91 is to keep the clan from being stagnant or overfilled with newbies that aren't newbies anymore, but not ready to be teachers. If they know they don't have to graduate if they don't get to rank 3, then some of them might be tempted to stop gaining rank to not "graduate". I have looked over the ranking and adgusted the gold amounts, since there's no need for them to pay for a clan room through the ranks. One thing that Naloh suggested to me was that instead of personallized clan rooms, we have some generic ones already built that we could assign, sorta the idea of dorm rooms. And give this as a benefit. I've had newbies ask in the past what the purpose of a clan room was while I was giving the tour. And as for the gold, I was toying with the idea of having a standing bounty for newbie sets.Alisaha 17:26, 1 August 2007 (CEST)

Ooh I like both those ideas, dorm rooms instead of personal clan rooms is a nice touch and that's a great idea to have a bounty up for newbie gear, lvl 25 gear, and lvl 50 gear. Mortiris 05:23, 2 August 2007 (CEST)

[edit] Race restrictions of OL/SL

Think it should be based on the int/wis stat... ie. it's not very rp to have a thull lord (stole that from help clan_creation)

Why isn't it rp to have a thull Lord, when we can have thull newbies and thull teachers? It doesn't seem to fit. Yeriath 18:36, 16 July 2007 (CEST)

Thulls, if you read the books, are in no way "leaders". They just lack any leadership powers and won't be good lords except in very rare occasions. Harakan 19:05, 16 July 2007 (CEST)

Akriados is a case in point. I don't see this as becoming a major issue, but a thull gaining a backbone isn't the most unlikely thing that could happen in Eddings' world. Lathale 22:11, 16 July 2007 (CEST)

i have to go with Yeriath on this one. as Lathale said, it's not highly unlikely that a Thull will grow a backbone, just highly improbable. i think counting them out completely as possible teachers is foolish. obviously don't make every Thull you come across a clan leader, but don't discount them at the offset just because of racial prejudices. Hafwen 14:21, 17 July 2007 (CEST)

To the best of my understanding, per clan_creation, we have to choose some class restrictions on the OL/SL. What restrictions should there be? Alisaha 05:14, 20 July 2007 (CEST)

After a discussion with Mortiris and Yeriath we drew up the following list as acceptable OL/SL races: Rivan Sendar Tolnedra Ulgo Nadrak Mallorean Drasnian. The reasons for removing the rest were aspects that made them less likely to be fit to be lord of a multi-racial clan: Algar (cuts ears off of angaraks), Asturian (often impulsive and emotional), Cherek (goes berserk at the word angaraks), Dryad (they're monsters. not accepted), Mimbrate (see Asturian), Murgo (too race-centric) , Nyissans (sneaky sneaky), Thull (not much up there). --Kerowa 04:29, 21 July 2007 (CEST)

[edit] Council

Instead of a sublord, the new clan will be run by a council of 4 meeting regularly (at least once a month). The 4 plus OL will vote on issues revelant to the clan. The council will be held to VERY STRICT standards as to activity(by hours),knowledge, and willingness to help without being asked. Council members will only be given one warning to improve in these areas before being removed from the council. The council will make up 4 of the 10 in the teacher subclan, and will hold rank 2 positions. The council will also evaluate applicants to the teacher clan and vote on admitance. They will also take part in the review of the remaining teacher clan members by testing for rank and general observance. Teachers will be given 3 warnings before being removed.

At this point these are the main issues that need to be discussed. Feel free to add other topics as needed. Alisaha 16:42, 16 July 2007 (CEST)

excellent idea. just make sure it's adhered to. if you say "log once every 3 days" then mean it. if you don't see them within 3 days, get rid of them. sounds harsh, but one of the problems with Shepherds was the fact that guidelines were set, then ignored. Hafwen 14:24, 17 July 2007 (CEST)

I have always liked the idea of a council over even having a lord. I think a lord should be more a figure head than a dictator. Stealing a bit from when we had a council in Adventurers I think it would benefit the clan if the 4 council members were put in each subclan, they would each have a rank of 1. Decisions about the clans direction would be decided by these council members, if the vote leads to a 2-2 tie than the lord will have the tie breaking vote. With council members in each subclan it makes for a more racially balanced council. Of course we all know most teachers will be Sendarian Sorcerers so this is hoping that we'll get some variation in class/race. Mortiris 04:12, 1 August 2007 (CEST)

[edit] Summary

The members of what would be our council in the new clan have discussed and would like to bring the following summary of all the discussion both here and on the mud. I do appreciate everyone hard work and am excited to put forth this information as what will be submitted hopefully within two weeks. This is the last chance to make your opinion known. Feel free to ask any questions over things not covered here, but I tried to include everything. Alisaha 23:20, 25 July 2008 (CEST)

[edit] General Info

1. Clan Mission - Give new Players easier access to experience, Eliminate competition between current Shepherds and Adventurers, and to give evil Chars a place to learn Prophecy.

2. Instead of making Sheps a sub of Adventures, it was decided to make a whole new clan. (from meeting notes)

3. The clan would be non PK

4. The clan would make an exception granted by Anheg to allow evil newbies in the clan.

5. Anheg has also graciously given another subclan to the new clan. Alisaha 23:20, 25 July 2008 (CEST)

[edit] New Clan acceptance

The five members needed to start a new clan will be Alisaha, Yeriath, Lathale, Yeltra, and Zhemos. The council will be made up of these five people with the exception of Aiviey instead of Yeltra. All others will petition the clan. The council will determine other members of the Adepts based on applications and testing. Former members of Adventurers and Sheps that want to be considered for the Elder clan as a Legacy member may petition the council. Newbies will be transferred into appropriate subclans Council members will be rank 1 and admitted into the subclan Elders. Alisaha would be OL of the new clan and depend on the council for all decisions concerning placement. Alisaha 23:20, 25 July 2008 (CEST)

[edit] Clan Names

Because this is a new clan, there is a need for a new name. Since we are accepting evil newbies, the idea of forming an Alliance is completely RP. The new name for the clan will be Alliance (done in the ^,#,and &) The subclans will be [Alnc][Elders] for the Council/Legacy, [Alnc][Adepts]for the teacher element of the clan [Alnc][Apprentices] for spellcaster newbies, and [Alnc][Novices] for warrior newbies. Alisaha 23:20, 25 July 2008 (CEST)

[edit] WWP

This subject has taken on much debate. But I think a compromise was finally reached.

For the Students wwp : name Sense of Discipline 2int, 2wis, 2con, 45hp and 45mana, perm haste

For the Apprentices wwp: name Sense of Purpose 2int, 2wis, 2con, 3hit, and 3dam perm haste

For the Adapts wwp name Sense of Commitment 2 hit, 7saves, -18 ac., perm haste

For the Elders wwp name Aura of Knowledge 2 hit, 7 saves, -18 ac., perm haste

The wwp will be given upon completion of the test at the end of the newbie training area. Until this is built, it will be given when a player reaches level 10 Alisaha 23:20, 25 July 2008 (CEST)

[edit] Clan Rank

10    Initiate   New Recruit                                     

09    Beginner   Level 10+, 25 Aqp, RP about joining Alliance    

08    Apprentice Level 20+, 250 Aqp, 500 Gold deposited into the 
                 Clan bank, RP about Apprenticeship              

07   Intern      Level 35+, 1000 Aqp, 2500 Gold deposited into   
                 the Clan bank, RP Description                   

    A waiting period of one week is mandatory for advancing    
    to the next rank. Even if you have the requirements for    
    the next rank, you must wait one week before submitting    
    your application. This applies to all ranks from this      
    point on.                                                  
                                                               
06   Journeyman  Level 50+, 3000 Aqp, 5000 Gold deposited into   
                 the Clan bank, RP about an adventure           

05   RP-Title    Level 75+, 5000 Aqp, 7500 Gold deposited into   
                 the Clan Bank, RP about clan title              

04   Trainee     Level 91, 10000 Aqp, 10000 Gold deposited into  
                 the Clan Bank, RP about helping someone new and 
                 application to Adepts. Also no longer seen to be
                 a newbie and must be involved in recruiting new 
                 players to the clan and teaching them the mud   

03  Guide       Level 91, 25000 Gold deposited into the Clan    
                bank, 1 month of active membership since last   
                promotion. Tests will be given on various items 
                areas and quests by Council members             

02 Savant       Level 91, proof of 10 rareloads and/or miniquest
                completions, 3 months minimum active in the clan
                Must pass test of all previous knowledge        
                requirements.Expected to actively and           
                consistently educate clan members. Must be voted 
                on and approved by Lords and Council members    

01  Officer     Level 91, Application to Elders, Recommended by 
                Lords and voted on by Council members           

00   Lords      OverLords and SubLords - Special circumstances  

     Reward for Rank will be as follows:
     Rank 9 - clan load
     Rank 7 - dorm room
     Rank 5 - clan title
     Rank 3 - personal clan room

Alisaha 23:20, 25 July 2008 (CEST)

[edit] Overlord Races

Here is our list as acceptable OL/SL races: Rivan Sendar Tolnedra Ulgo Nadrak Mallorean Drasnian. The reasons for removing the rest were aspects that made them less likely to be fit to be lord of a multi- racial clan. Alisaha 23:20, 25 July 2008 (CEST)

[edit] Clan Hall

For the purpose of expediency, a rename of the current Adventure clan hall will be used to reflect the Alliance theme. A training area, moving the Elder/Adept clan rooms and creating dorm rooms, renaming potions will all take place at a later date. The clan hall will be moved to the west of Emerald Ave, right below Kate's Diner. Since this is an alliance, there is no need for separate areas of dorm rooms. Alisaha 23:20, 25 July 2008 (CEST)

[edit] Clan Rules

01) Be respectful of all people at all times.                        
02) Do not take advantage of new players or their lack of knowledge.
03) You are not obliged to give QPs, QEQ or anything of that nature  
    to clanmates.                                                    
04) If you don't contribute to the clan by attempting to get better  
    you will be given 2-3 warnings then you will be asked to leave.  
05) If you do not log for 14 days, your Alliance alt may be        
    declanned at the clan leader's discretion.                       
06) Respect other clan members, especially the ones who are helping  
    you. Excessive begging or whining to be helped will not be       
    tolerated.                                                       
07) All requirements for rank raises are to be earned by you alone.  
    Gifts from friends or alts may not be included in rank gains.    
    AQP tokens bought/won are NOT to be used for rank gain.           
    Honesty is appreciated.                                          
08) Under no circumstances is another person to know the password    
    to your Alliance character. It is only to be used by you. If     
    someone is caught with another person using your Alliance alt,   
    swift action will be taken.                                      
09) No pleveling in any form is to be used without permission.       
                                                                     
* To see how to gain ranks type look plaque at clan recall.          
* To note the entire clan type note to alliance and all will see    
* When you have eq that you don’t need anymore clan donate it. That   
  way new clan members benefit from your generosity.                 
                                                                     

Alisaha 23:20, 25 July 2008 (CEST)

[edit] Legacy

No one wants to see Sheps or Adventurers die. I understand that. But at the state the mud is at, it's not healthy (imho) for Sheps and Adventurers to be competing for teachers. There are several efforts to preserve the memory of both in discussion, including statues in the training area, or maybe someone can build a museum to the Sheps and Adv in the old clan halls. But this issue of legacy shouldn't hold the merge up. We need to be one united clan, and worry about how to address legacy at a later date. Alisaha 23:20, 25 July 2008 (CEST)

[edit] Alliance Help File

The purpose of the Alliance is to bring friendly knowledgeable teachers to those who are new to the world of Prophecy and teach them all aspects of the mud. The Alliance is where newbies can intermingle with those who have proven to be knowledgeable, patient, and friendly. If you are new and just don't know where to start or you die and need aid recovering, the Alliance is ready to help. The Alliance is ready to guide you on your discovery of the mud.

To become a teacher in Alliance, send a note to the OL with the following information: 1. The name of your Main alt 2. How often/when you typically log 3. What you feel your strengths on the mud are? 4. What areas you would like to work on as part of Alliance?

Alisaha 23:20, 25 July 2008 (CEST)

[edit] Some Anheg Comments

Unfortunately, we didn't manage to all converge before I needed to depart. However, there's enough confusion and inaccuracy wild enough as to almost seem deliberate, that I want to point out a few things. Apologies for poor structure and phrasing, I leave in 2h, so need to make it quick. Also, I'm going to throw in some personal opinion. Apparently people think otherwise, but that's something I generally keep out of things.

[edit] General Playerclan Comments

These probably deserve a section of their own; will sort later when tidying up some of the clan stuff.

• The idea of playerclans was to minimise Immortal intervention. Heh. To that end, a reminder...
  • As far as I'm concerned, a clan is an absolute dictatorship. If you're not the OL, I'm really not bothered
    • This doesn't quite hold wrt the clan builder, but is a rule of thumb
    • If you want some sort of internal council, fair enough. It's still the OL that'll be the one I deal with.
  • ...unless you're an inactive OL, in which case (yes, this needs formalising, but it's the best I've got), if you're in the clan and fancy being OL, let me know
  • I really don't care about the position of UL. If you want someone inactive, offensive, or whatever, as the UL, that's your choice to make. See above, about how it's an absolute dictatorship

Just a reminder, some people seem to be unaware...

[edit] Fast rough merge comments

Seriously, people. I've had to resort to reading logs, the difference between "what X said" and "what Y says X said" is that great. That's something that I really shouldn't have to do. Also, if X says "I think Z", that doesn't really make it valid to say "X said Z".

Anyway:

• If the new hall isn't built, whatever, lets just get this done. I'm happy to ok almost anything.
• It's a massive change. Lets have a new name/story/etc.
  • Jared, if you have issues with this, let me know and we can talk about it
• Lets try and make it look like you've read things? Seriously, posting a 'summary' about the new "Alliance", with rules containing references to "Adventurers" makes it look like something you've spent all of 2 minutes on, and really doesn't inspire me to keep reading, have faith, etc etc.

I think that's everything. I'm possibly a little unduly harsh; see the intro as to the nature of this section, it's born of frustration.

Also, seriously, when did someone's ability to be good at helping newbies have ANY real relation to "how fast can you get a set of optimal eq for an arbitrary level/align combination"? This was a new one to me, and possibly explains a lot of things...

Anyway, hopefully this has left people with some things to think about, cleared one or two things up, and not been too offensive. See you in 2 weeks

[edit] Alisaha's decision

Ok this has gone far enough. I can understand the desire to agrue about something we feel SO passionate about. And we all love this mud. I want to agrue. I've always thought of myself as a peacemaker, and thought that was a good thing. But in this case, it's caused things to go WAY to far. Some of the reason it took a year to complete this is because I've been too busy trying to make everybody happy. I will own up to that. But after yesterday, I've decided that peacemaker role has drug this out and caused SO much hostility and such. So I've decided to play dictator, which I should have a long time ago. It is my belief that the merge is a good thing. Not because of the hard work we've put into it, but because it's taking two smaller clans that do basically the same thing, and combining them into one, creating more clan loyalty.

So I am going to submit the application, as is. IF the decision about leaving sheps in or taking sheps out is left up to me, as the only OL involved in it, I'm leaving it in. If I am wrong in my assumption about it being left up to me, then we'll proceed from there. Hate me, be hostile not be in the new clan, I don't care anymore. This is gone far enough and all of this arguing isn't going to solve anything.