Talk:BuilderPointsSystemModifications
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[edit] A rough dump of Anheg's braindump on ooc
Note that this will be better formatted and summarised later. Anheg needs sleep
Anheg oocs It's nothing huge Anheg oocs Very roughly Anheg oocs "lose the 'bonus stat points'", "add points value for reses", "prioritise anti-aligns more" "sort hpmana costs" Jared oocs ugg Aewyr oocs You'd have to check your area upon completion anyway Aewyr oocs I need a shredder Jared oocs this is true Aewyr oocs Now is a good time before a ton of builders come back and reawaken their projects Aewyr oocs Less complaining that way :P Anheg oocs And imho, it needs to be done Anheg oocs Oh, the other project, but slightly longer term Anheg oocs Is adjusting old eq to fit new system Anheg oocs Specifically some "problem pieces" Anheg oocs Demonskin, thin silver bracelets, dead spirit, um what else Aewyr oocs So would you hire a bunch of builders to go back and edit those areas? Or would Zubrette have to do it all on her lonesome? :( Kyosucu oocs large silver ring? Jared oocs there was one more Anheg oocs Possibly the former Anheg oocs There were several tbh Anheg oocs But also doing things like Aewyr oocs Very cool Anheg oocs Improving say, Signet Ring of Torak Anheg oocs Holy Bands of Illum Anheg oocs etc. Anheg oocs There's lots of old stuff that used to be good, and hard to get, that's been replaced by better stuff that's easier to get Anheg oocs Which is suboptimal Anheg oocs There's also some old stuff that now sucks due to things like vulns mattering Jared oocs i definately switched that around in my area Jared oocs most of the stuff is rough, even compared to a holy band Anheg oocs So roughly Anheg oocs Align-less stuff != good Anheg oocs This is very much a brainstorm ftr Anheg oocs And not gospel, and open to comments and change Anheg oocs Alignless stuff, esp at 91, isn't good Aewyr oocs Put it up on prophwiki Anheg oocs When it's more structured, yes Anheg oocs Anyway, stuff usable by any align isn't good Anheg oocs So we want to increase the penalty for that Aewyr oocs why not just say...don't do it? Anheg oocs Possibly to the point where people don't make the stuff Anheg oocs Or at least, there are few reasons you'd want to Anheg oocs On one hand, anti-aligns are crap in an rp sense Anheg oocs On the other, screw that, game-wise they're bloody useful Jared oocs i use class restrictions a bit Jared oocs reward that Anheg oocs Yeah, I'm still not sure about those Anheg oocs They feel like a bit of an afterthought, they're non-trivial to decide points values Jared oocs i do class restrictions, it makes more sense to me than anti-align Jared oocs a ranger shouldnt be able to use the heavy armor a mimbrate uses, etc Anheg oocs Very true Anheg oocs In that sense, I quite like it Anheg oocs The problem is Aewyr oocs ooh very D&D Anheg oocs With anti aligns, it's easy Anheg oocs it's either usable by all aligns, not by one, or only by one Anheg oocs 3 combinations, nice and simple Aewyr oocs I like the idea of massive, long miniquests that end in a full set of armor specifically for your class Aewyr oocs But that's so not appropriate for this game XD Anheg oocs There's faff with "well if that's sorc only, shouldn't it get more than caster only, and blah" Anheg oocs I'm quite tempted to, longer term, create "light/med/heavy" armour Anheg oocs With intrinsic bonuses/penalties Aewyr oocs do it do it do it Anheg oocs But anyway, in the shorter term Jared oocs thats what im doing with the class restrictions right now Anheg oocs Anti aligns are basically the best thing we have Jared oocs i think i have legionnaire knight guardsman horseman warrior for heavy Anheg oocs berserker? or they medium? Jared oocs medium Jared oocs you could code light/medium/heavy into the class restrictions, as groups Anheg oocs Hmm, this idea deserves more than random ooc chat Anheg oocs Indeed Anheg oocs Want to ProphWiki it for me please? ;) Jared oocs dont have a prophwiki account Anheg oocs Back to anti-aligns, because they're faster and simpler to fix, and I'm looking for something short term for now Anheg oocs So, I think one of the worst changes was to make Demonskin available to all aligns Anheg oocs A bit melodramatic there possibly Anheg oocs But it really wasn't good Anheg oocs Suddenly, who else is ever going to use anything else Anheg oocs There go Ivory and Holy sleeves Jared oocs i like holy sleeves Anheg oocs Right, but Anheg oocs Sure, you lose 10 ac, and 1/1 Anheg oocs But for 20 hp, and more importantly, res bloody weapon Anheg oocs Few wouldn't Jared oocs but after the dash change it isnt worth even going into that area Anheg oocs Why? the mobs are trivial ;) Anheg oocs Anyway Anheg oocs Roughly, for each wearloc, at 91 Jared oocs they are now, with hit vs ac thing changed Anheg oocs "There should probably be" at least 4 categories of eq Anheg oocs "good/evil" (with neutral picking a side) Anheg oocs (very roughly, no reason there couldn't be 3 there, or neutral/good+evil, etc) Anheg oocs and "caster/meleer" Anheg oocs Now ideally, even within those, you want choices Anheg oocs "ooh, do I go for these rings for my caster with saves, or more hpmana?" Anheg oocs "mmm, nice hitdam on this shield, but poor base!" Anheg oocs People with me so far? Aewyr oocs Yay, more options for shopping! Anheg oocs EXACTLY Jared oocs ok as what classes there are, sorcerer, grolim, priest, warrior, guardsman, berserker, poisoner, ranger, horseman, knight, legionnaire, thief, spy, am i missing anything? Aewyr oocs and some PK diversity I suppose Anheg oocs help classes Jared oocs i just did Aewyr oocs horseman Anheg oocs + guardsmen Aewyr oocs wait no Anheg oocs Anyway Jared oocs i thought about it right after i said it Anheg oocs While I consider the "4 pieces" to be a decent target Aewyr oocs I like it because then I don't have to worry so much about not being as "well-equipped" as someone else Anheg oocs Like, obviously more would be better Aewyr oocs I would just be varied Anheg oocs And 3 isn't terrible Anheg oocs 2 doable, but 1 is definitely bad Anheg oocs Like, when demonskin was evil only, sleeves was quite alright imho Anheg oocs There were basically 3, your align determined which one Aewyr oocs How many pieces would you like to see? Aewyr oocs Like ideally Anheg oocs Yes, you're still in the situation where "all evil people wear the same sleeves", but that's nowhere near as bad as "all people" Anheg oocs Pragmatically ideally, say 8? Anheg oocs There's no "exact number", it's not a science Anheg oocs And more is roughly always better Anheg oocs 8 is "the 4 types I mentioned, and a choice for each" Aewyr oocs So how would you actually make this change happen? With points, right? Anheg oocs Exactly Aewyr oocs And that would only affect equipment being released in new areas until all the old areas could be updated? Anheg oocs So atm, the "caster/meleer" thing isn't too bad Anheg oocs Since you can choose to put points into hitdam, or hpmana Anheg oocs So you get "generic", "caster", "warrior" bits Aewyr oocs Well, I like it because if I were to build an area then I won't go "Well, why bother making a sleeves piece? There's already a demonskin" Anheg oocs I'm going to use "warrior" to mean "meleer", because I find it easier to type Anheg oocs But align, wow too much badness there Anheg oocs So, and please excuse the numbers, these are pulled out of the are Anheg oocs are? air Anheg oocs But say, everything defaults to having one anti align Anheg oocs You can add another for some "moderate" bonus Jared oocs i have no idea how to use a wiki apparently Anheg oocs And you can pay $lots of points to remove one Anheg oocs So the majority of stuff comes out with one anti align (creating the good/evil split) Anheg oocs There's some stuff usable by all, but the difference in stats is noticeable Aewyr oocs Cool Jared oocs or it could have to have an align restriction, or light/medium/heavy one Anheg oocs So given the choice, a good sorc would use the, I dunno, anti-evil rings rather than the all-align rings, because they have better stats Anheg oocs Yes, this potentially makes align-free eq a bit crap, but I don't see a big problem with that Jared oocs i have an evil sorcerer right now, because it gets me the most mana Anheg oocs Arguably, a generic piece of eq right now is less desirable than a sorc piece, or meleer piece Anheg oocs Which imho, is How It Should Be Anheg oocs Everyone with me so far? Aewyr oocs Yes Amagar oocs yes, for what I've been watching. been busy :P Anheg oocs Basically, if it's "usable by everyone", we don't want it Anheg oocs (thin silvers, and demonskin, I'm looking at you guys) Amagar oocs pretty much, because it's not made for a specfic purpose, and there is better Anheg oocs That's the biggest thing Amagar oocs yeah, there needs to be.. different solutions for those. Amagar oocs EVERYONE uses Demonskins, and thin silvers. Anheg oocs So, on another slightly related note Anheg oocs "free stat points" Anheg oocs Nuh uh Jared oocs i have an align-removed demonskin Amagar oocs what? lol Anheg oocs Right now, everything being built has stats Kyosucu oocs and i have angelskin! Amagar oocs that's a plus. Amagar oocs Jared.. most do. Anheg oocs You build your eq, then lob on your free stat Jared oocs a paid for version Anheg oocs And that's suboptimal Anheg oocs The choice should exist Anheg oocs As much choice as reasonably possible, ideally Anheg oocs Wonder how many people remember when it used to be that most people would have eq to fight in, and eq to wear when they levelled Anheg oocs Because there was good but stat-poor eq, and statful but suboptimal eq Jared oocs i was around for that Anheg oocs Now, roughly, people make good eq, add their free stat point, and bang Anheg oocs Oh, jumping back a bit Anheg oocs (did the above make sense?) Jared oocs yes Anheg oocs Similar theme, less "needed" than the align stuff, imho, but still of benefit Anheg oocs Base ac Anheg oocs Right now, basically, everyone seems to make stuff with the maximum base Anheg oocs Which again, isn't good Anheg oocs By making the points benefits to reducing base ac greater Jared oocs make em pay for more than 2/3s of the max ac for that level Kyosucu oocs people dont have "just" leveling eq? Anheg oocs You now get "ooh, do I get this thing with good base, but worse stats, and enchant it or spend the qp building it up long erm, or get this thing that's generally better but lower base" Anheg oocs (hey look, yet another choice) Anheg oocs Make sense? Anheg oocs (Aewyr -- still there? ;)) Jared oocs i think in a few minutes we're gonna see anhegs brain explode Anheg oocs Oh, also, two handed Anheg oocs This is quite a minor thing, but I want to make that usable Anheg oocs Well, not "quite" a minor, it's again, choice Anheg oocs But like, atm I don't know of any reason to use a twohanded weapon Jared oocs if it added a percentage of damage, id forego a shield now and then Anheg oocs Oh, unless you're large, so it's basically one-handed, which I don't like Anheg oocs It does Jared oocs not a noticeable one Anheg oocs It just doesn't add enough to make up for the fact that you could either be dualling, or wearing shield and holdie Anheg oocs Now, that'd require more balance work, and code pokeage Anheg oocs To get the damage bonus right Anheg oocs But again, of value I think Anheg oocs On a more minor note, we currently have 3 different "values" for hpmana Anheg oocs (aq, build, qp) Anheg oocs I and others thing the build value for hpmana is too high Anheg oocs And we're pretty sure it's not just that we're used to old values, Anheg oocs Yet to really find anyone who disagrees Anheg oocs Though no-one's said it should be as low as the old values Anheg oocs Again, comments/thoughts? Anheg oocs Particularly on that last one, though of course, I welcome them for all of the above Jared oocs i dont remember the old values Anheg oocs Just most of the above, I ardently believe is necessary Anheg oocs Whereas the hpmana, I'm less sure Anheg oocs 6, rather than 15 Jared oocs oh, max wouldnt change, just how long it took to get there? Anheg oocs Nod Anheg oocs Like, there's stock 91 eq with 60hp 70 mana Anheg oocs Which would have once been 24/30 Anheg oocs Ish Jared oocs not as low as 6 Jared oocs maybe 10 or 12 Anheg oocs 10's the number I've been looking at Anheg oocs I'm pretty sure it's not just that I'm so used to old values Anheg oocs And that it's not just a matter of perception Anheg oocs But as I say, lmk Anheg oocs I suspect I'll just wiki this Anheg oocs Aewyr: Prod for comments on the above? Aewyr oocs hang on Aewyr oocs So you're saying that people shouldn't be able to basically aqtrain hp/mana so far up? Anheg oocs Uh, no Anheg oocs Like, that's completely and utterly unrelated Jared oocs hes talking about slowing progression Aewyr oocs Sorry, I wasn't paying attention >_< I'm scrolling back up Anheg oocs aqtraining doesn't relate Aewyr oocs What do you mean "build value?" Anheg oocs Cost in terms of building points Anheg oocs i.e. atm Aewyr oocs Oh oh Anheg oocs If you're making qeq Anheg oocs As a mortal Anheg oocs 4qp gets you 1 hitroll, or 6 hp Anheg oocs As a builder, 5ish points gets you 1 hitroll or 15 hp Anheg oocs So as a mortal making qeq, you grab sorc eq and add hitdam Jared oocs which is backasswards Anheg oocs Exactly Anheg oocs Now, in the case where it's *nice* sorc eq, like, there might be *a* piece where you do that Anheg oocs But atm, too general Anheg oocs What I'm focusing on here though is the build cost Anheg oocs This discussion is all about the builder points cost Aewyr oocs OH okay Anheg oocs So, in summary Anheg oocs Defaults of 1+ anti align for "normal" eq Anheg oocs Bigger bonus for dropping base ac Anheg oocs And make hp more expensive
[edit] Zubrette's Summary of What was said in that Ooc
- "lose the 'bonus stat points'"
- "add points value for reses"
- "prioritise anti-aligns more"
- "sort hpmana costs"
- adjusting old eq to fit new system, specifically some "problem pieces" (Demonskin, thin silver bracelets, dead spirit, Signet Ring of Torak, Holy Bands of Illum, Ivory and Holy sleeves/old stuff that used to be good, and hard to get, that's been replaced by better stuff that's easier to get/old stuff that now sucks due to things like vulns mattering)
[edit] Items with no align are not beneficial
Stuff usable by any align isn't good, so we want to increase the penalty for that. "There should probably be" at least 4 categories of eq: "good/evil" (with neutral picking a side) and "caster/meleer". If everything defaults to having one anti align, you can add another for some "moderate" bonus and you can pay $lots of points to remove one.
So the majority of stuff comes out with one anti align (creating the good/evil split.)
Arguably, a generic piece of eq right now is less desirable than a sorc piece, or meleer piece which imho, is how it should Be
- This is the most serious fix imo that needs to be made. Right now, you only get 5 points extra by adding an anti-align, but this is equivalent to 1hit/1dam/10hp etc. Equivalently, with the qp system, removing an align is 10qps versus the 4 for everything else. I also think this would create the most variations with respect to "sets". Perhaps default of one align. Bonus of 5 points if you add the additional one. Bonus of 10 points if you add the last one so NOONE can use that piece. Subtraction of 10 points for removing the existing one? --Zubrette 02:16, 17 July 2008 (CEST)
- I'm no math expert, but yes, this needs serious tweaking. Just one question: Why would you make a piece of eq that no one can use? Hafwen 16:35, 27 August 2008 (CEST)
- I think that if you're going to force neutral to pick a side, hp gains should have nothing to do with align.
--Grekan 03:55, 17 July 2008 (CEST)
[edit] "free stat points"
Right now, everything being built has stats: you build your eq, then lob on your free stat and that's suboptimal; The choice should exist.
There should be a choice between fighting sets and levelling sets: good but stat-poor eq, and statful but suboptimal eq
- I think keeping one free stat for < lvl 25 might be helpful since it's very difficult to work with the points available and make things comparable to everything else. --Zubrette 02:16, 17 July 2008 (CEST)
- If you have suboptimal eq, wouldn't that make it harder to level? As it stands now, most people make mobs that you can't kill with eq that is obtainable in your own level range (Anheg's quest is proving that. At level 32, I don't even have a full set of Vo Seldor eq, and I can't get some of the other pieces necessary (yataghan comes to mind)). I'm not sure how to fix this. Perhaps put a limit on the amount of rareloads/miniquest eq rewards in an area? So people aren't making entire sets that are only available by killing a mob repeatedly or finishing a bunch of miniquests. That would make the amount of "good" eq less available (Vo Seldor again), and would make having eq loaded 100% on mobs or shopkeepers a viable option again. Sorry if this isn't very coherent. I'm struggling to understand a lot of this (I've never understood the eq system fully). Hafwen 16:44, 27 August 2008 (CEST)
[edit] base ac
Right now, basically, everyone seems to make stuff with the maximum base which again, isn't good.
Should make reward for reducing base ac greater.
- Should also make it so that reducing base ac for floaties doesn't count --Zubrette 02:16, 17 July 2008 (CEST)
- It doesn't already - Anheg 11:24, 17 July 2008 (CEST)
[edit] twohanded
should be more useful; doesn't add enough to make up for the fact that you could either be dualling, or wearing shield and holdie (that'd require more balance work, and code pokeage)
[edit] hpmana
There are currently different cost systems for hpmana: (aq, build, qp). I and others think the build value for hpmana is too high: instead of costing 6 points to add, maybe change to 10.
if you're making qeq, as a mortal, 4qp gets you 1 hitroll, or 6 hp. as a builder, 5ish points gets you 1 hitroll or 15 hp.
[edit] Res/Vulns (was mentioned briefly above but not explained in details)
A perm is currently worth 25 building points and 75 qps to add. A res costs 60 qps to add. Perhaps a res could cost 20 qps to add? A vuln currently adds only 5 points. I'm not sure if this needs to be changed or not. If a vuln is added, pretty much noone will use it at this point, but if you raise this amount and based on the way the code is written (at least how i think it works), a vuln can be compensated by a res so people can do funny things like "everyone has res weapon so let's add a vuln weapon for lots of points -teeheehee-". I think certain vulns should get more bonus points then others too. --Zubrette 02:16, 17 July 2008 (CEST)
That makes soooo much sense, and it makes vulns and reses less scary, less damaging to some equipment currently, and makes things like the Demonskin less essential. --Grekan 04:17, 17 July 2008 (CEST)
[edit] Something else that came up while Anheg was away
Changing points system for miniquests. Right now, whether it's "buy item x, give to mob y, get z", or "trek around the area solving multiple riddles and puzzles", you basically get the same points. In theory, that 6 points is nominally a maximum for the hardest of miniquests. In practice, that's tricky to judge, and in most cases, the full bonus is given. It's always going to be qualitative and require common sense, but I propose making things a little more explicit, factoring ease of discovery / initial completion and ease of repetition:
- Discovery / Initial Completion
- Easy (think "X, bring me Y", get Y by killing some mob, give)
- Medium (nedra, blessed spirit)
- Hard
- Repetition
- Easy (think nearly anything that can just be trivially aliased once the "magic incantation" is known, e.g. Sky Crystal, blessed spirit; possibly also things that can be repeated via two players summoning (nedra, valor shield))
- Medium
- Hard
(Attempting to think of more examples)
[edit] Quantitative Suggestions
Some initial ideas. Haven't fully done the maths yet, so don't expect them to be fully thought through.
- Eq starts with two anti-flags; removing one anti-flag costs 5
- Drop free stats
-
-1base ac +1 (given that "-5ac -6", and base is more valuable...possibly even more)- I misread; current system is like this- Maybe increase bonus though? Currently it's little used. Wonder if -4 base -> +5 pts would help?
- Anheg 16:16, 31 August 2008 (CEST)
- Perhaps adding a res should be +20.
- Bump twohandedness from +5 to +10?
--Zubrette 03:08, 5 September 2008 (CEST)
So, currently, reses are faffy -- I'm inclined to say that as there's been no other comments here, you and I commit what we've got now, and sort the non-res/vuln eq. Sound good? - Anheg 12:57, 7 September 2008 (CEST)
