Talk:Rangers

From ProphWiki

Rangers have the highest possible creation costs of all classes on Prophecy. Granted, a ranger can be very versatile. However, we rarely see them due to the insane creation costs. One of the ways to fix this is demonstrated below. In this example, the following groups are added at character creation.

Default: Ranger Default (40) Spells: Beguiling (6), Curative (6), Detection (7), Illusion (7), Maladictions (8), Protective (9), Transportation (6), Enhancement (8) Skills: Shield Block (2), Archery (5), Ambush (7), Track (7), Evade (3), Third Attack (5),

One of the things we should consider doing is beefing up Ranger Default. Let's consider adding into ranger default for free these skills:

    Ambush           7cps
    Archery          5cps
    Transportation   6cps
    Track            7cps

A Ranger then, with a "good" amount of things, but no weapons master and missing a few skills goes down from being 126cps to 101cps. That's 8400 per level instead of 20800.

Granted, that's a lot of spell groups. Even when dropping out Protective and Enhancement, I'm still at 109 cps with 11600 TNL in the current system.

Now, when comparing class creation CPs, here's what the costs are (not including if choosing class default):

Priest to Ranger Comparison in CPs

Curative        P: 4  R: 6
Detection       P: 3  R: 7
Maladictions    P: 5  R: 8
Protective      P: 4  R: 9
Transportation  P: 4  R: 6
Shield Block    P: 7  R: 2
Spellsurge      P: 6  R: 10

Sorcerer to Ranger Comparison in CPs

Beguiling       S: 4 R: 6
Detection       S: 4 R: 7
Enhancement     S: 5 R: 8
Illusion        S: 4 R: 7
Maladictions    S: 5 R: 8
Protective      S: 4 R: 9
Transportation  S: 4 R: 6
Shield Block    S: 7 R: 2
Spellsurge      S: 6 R: 10

Thief to Ranger Comparison in CPs

Detection       T: 7 R: 7
Illusion        T: 5 R: 7
Transportation  T: 8 R: 6
Shield Block    T: 6 R: 2
Evade           T: 2 R: 3
Third Attack    T: 8 R: 5

Now, the inherent problem here is the fact that we have spell groups that exist where certain classes get all of the spells in them, and other classes don't. In order to balance off classes at character creation, we should make these proprietary spells a part of the Class Default group. By doing this, all sorcerer's with the default will get Web, and all Priests with the default will get Grace of Gods, etc etc etc. Then, once that is done, CPs per class can be re-evaluated, and class default groups adjusted.

Erepitus 10:00, 6 August 2007 (CEST)

I like what you are suggesting Erepitus and think we do need to do something to change rangers. If I remember correctly ranger default only gives 39pts worth of skills and costs 40, so from right off the bat Rangers are getting the shaft. I think a good way to balance out rangers is just to set up a decent ranger default by adding second attack, dirt kicking, and maladiction. As a way to make it so rangers can't do everything take out detections, make it so rangers can only scry. Remove Blindness from the maladiction spell group and make it so rangers can only dirt kick. Remove spellsurge. A few things like this might balance out rangers enough so they will be a class worth playing. Erepitus is correct that you need a good 15k + to make any sort of decent ranger. This is upsetting seeing as you only need 5k to make a decent priest, 6k a warrior & BSer, and 8k a sorcerer. Mortiris 04:49, 7 August 2007 (CEST)

First, ranger basics, with sword and second attack. Then ranger default: dagger(3), dodge(4), dirt kicking(4), parry(4), trip(4), fast healing(4), hide(6), enhanced damage(3), sneak(5), creation(2), weather (3). This makes 42. 2 points of win. However (not even starting to look at basics), Drasnians get free sneak, so lose out on 3 points, Asturians get hide, so lose out on 4, and Dryads get sneak, so 3. Not to mention the fact that skill groups don't drop in cost if you already have skills from within them. Attempting to stick on-topic, I think the main reason for the high CP cost was to compensate for the flexibility, which is sensible logic. There is a *lot* of brokenness wrt skills and spells and their costs and grouping. I'm highly tempted to dump the whole file on the wiki somewhere, let several pairs of eyes assist me, because trust me, it's crackful. (Yes I know I've subverted this somewhat into a more general discussion, apologies, but I think this happens to just be a significant single symptom of that underlying cause) - Anheg 11:46, 11 August 2007 (CEST)

More towards Anheg's point. Your idea seems to be a better way to balance rangers out. If skill/spell groups were given CP based on the spell in them than rangers would be cheaper to make and other classes would see changes in CP as well. As Erepitus mention, each class seems to have a different cost associated with each group, is there any easy way to just change the number. As a side questions, is it possible to make info work for each class, so info ranger_curative will give you the ranger's curative spells instead of now where it's info curative and you have to guess which spells you don't get? Mortiris 21:00, 11 August 2007 (CEST)

If rangers were a "new" class, it'd be so easy to make it so we just change how rangers work entirely. Instead of having such a hodgepodge of skills/spells, they could have specific "we're rangers and we're teh coolies" stuff. The problem with this though is the fact that rangers already exist, albeit not that many. So, I think that'd be a good call to post that stuff Hegginator, so we can all dig in and understand a little bit more about how CPs and classes work. Erepitus 13:28, 13 August 2007 (CEST)